Shikoku Dog: Wolfdog?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224


    Wikipedia.org has the Shikoku Dog labeled as a “Japanese wolfdog” – I don’t think that’s very accurate. The term “wolfdog” is usually used to refer to wolf-dog hybrids.








    What do you guys think? Do you think having it labeled like that is detrimental to the breed?

  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    Interesting... I wonder where this all comes from.  I'm very tempted to edit the wikipedia article to address this and say it's inaccurate.  
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    yea I was thinking the same thing - but I wanted to see what others thought about it. ya know?
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    Perhaps someone should contact Katja and ask her opinion.  Maybe she knows where this is coming from.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • Michelle MMichelle M
    Posts: 593


    I don't necessarily think it's negative. I think it came about because the Shikoku resemble a wolfish dog.



    I don't associate anything negative with wolves or being closer to wolves, etc. I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about wolves in general. If you read a lot about wolves, how loyal they are to their family pack, their choosing of mates, rearing and sharing rearing of pups, their intelligence and problem solving, etc., and that they are NOT hell hound, devil spawn, vicious, blood-thirsty killing machines, you start thinking that by saying a dog has primitive wolf-like qualities is actually a compliment. JMO. I absolutely adore wolves - of course, never as a pet though.



    Side note: Wolfdog isn't always associated with hybrids - there are Irish and Russian Wolfhounds...

    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224


    I, personally, don't have an issue with it as far as my feeling towards wolves go, I don't have an issue with wolfdogs or wolves and don't share the same views as most people when it comes to wolves. I don't really feel it gives a negative undertone to the Shikoku as a breed - but I can see how some people [probably the general public] may have that feeling.


    I do, however, have an issue with it because using that term to describe the Shikoku breed is incorrect; Shikokus are not wolfdogs. The term 'wolfhound' is usually used to refer to dogs that where bred to hunt wolves. The term 'wolfdog' is usually used to describe an animal that has, relatively recently, been bred/crossed with a wolf. Neither of these terms apply accurately to the Shikoku breed - that is really my issue with the wikipedia.org entry.


    I have no issue with wolves, wolfdogs, or wolfhounds - personally I am very interested in wolves.

    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2007-07-26 10:35:53
  • Michelle MMichelle M
    Posts: 593
    I think a more accurate discription would have been deer hound, since many of the Shika breeds are/were used for hunting deer. Of course, no one wants to hear that! LOL! Dogs don't look like deer. But then, technically, they aren't hounds, either.
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386


    "But then, technically, they aren't hounds, either."



    Do you mean shikokus aren't technically hounds?  Because technically, they are hounds.  They're in the hound group in the CKC.  Shibas should be in the hound group, too, but they were classified before the CKC recognized non-western breeds as being useful for anything, so they're in non-sporting.  

    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • Michelle MMichelle M
    Posts: 593


    Interesting... so are Akitas listed as hounds?



    I guess I never thought of either as anything other than Northern Spitz and Working dog group. Add primitive spitz for the Shikoku. 

    Post edited by Unknown User at -0001-11-30 00:00:00
  • ShikokuSpiritShikokuSpirit
    Posts: 2228


    Concerning the Shikoku as a "Wolfdog"...I wrote something on this under another topic, a moon or so ago. I will go find my previous post and quote it here.



    And I found it! I shorted it down a bit though, to only let the important points shine through:



    "I'd like to think that Shikoku differ from wolves in temperment. Since they have been domesticated and tend to be more obedient then not. I'd really like to think that they lack the shyness and nervy-ness of the wolf.



    It is believed, a myth perhaps (the Japanese are known for many, many myths), that the Shikoku has the Japanese wolf in its background. Whether it has been crossed with the Japanese Wolf in the old type Spitz canines.



    Or perhaps a domestication of the Japanese Wolf that took thousands of years has resulted in such mutation and molded it into the dog we see today. As far as I know the Japanese wolf itself has been extinct for some many years.



    Whether either of these are true, even in the slight, or not. We may never know, but can only make very educated guess based on what we do know. Still makes for a very intriguing story though, don't ya think?"



    I'd like to add more points to my old post. -heavy sigh- However, it's way too humid in my room and I'm feeling a bit lazy.



    Instead I will provide you with links to other sites that will go more into detail about past experiments/studies that have been done of the wolf x domestic dog breedings and domestications of the fox (I love hearing about this experiment and never tire of it - I want a tame Silver Fox! lol).



    Early Canid Domestication: The Farm Fox Experiment

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts



    http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/History.htm 

    (There are videos too! Aggressive vs. Tame Silver Foxes)



    Evolution and Domestication: Selection on Developmental Genes?

    http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?ch=23&id=223



    I just threw this in here...another interesting but very SHORT read. That perhaps because of human intervention - breeding for select behaviors in our dogs - wolf and dog similarities/differences in human interaction are inconclusive:

    http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1084&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0



    I can't find that article on the Wolf x domestic dog experiment and using the offspring as a working dog (like police type). Anyways, they found out that only 1/8 wolf blood in a dog is suitable for this (for training/commanding the canine - keyword is "commanding"). Which means by then that the "wild" blood of the wolf has been diluted and "lost" within the long "domestication" of the dog's blood. So when you get to that point, only then can you call it a dog. Previous generations even F1's* that are half wolf and half whatever breed of dog or still wolves NOT dogs, same goes for the F2's* and F3's*. 



    *F1 - 1st Generation (wolf x domestic dog)

    *F2 - 2nd Generation (F1 offspring 50% wolf 50% dog x domestic dog)

    *F3 - 3rd Generation (F2 offspring 25% wolf 75% dog x domestic dog --> produces F4 offspring - 4th Generation, etc)



    Side Note: I do believe it has been recorded that the offspring of a wolf x domestic dog breeding has an increased tracking ability. Its sense of smell, rather, is far greater then the average dogs. And that's mainly because of the recent Wolf blood that runs through their veins. When breeding back to the domestic dog, selecting for certain qualities I do believe that later generations can retain this enhanced ability of scenting far better then a domestic dog who carries no recent trace of "wild" blood.



    Anyways...if the Shikoku is indeed a decendent of the Japanese Wolf or it's domesticated couterpart...it just goes to show you how many generations people had to go through. As well as what qualities they had to select in breeding pairs to give us the Shikoku dogs we have today. Just HOW FAR back does their lineage go? I wonder...



     -yawns- Now I shall wonder of this in my dreams. I'm tired, it's STILL humid. I will edit this tomorrow if need be. Happy pondering! -smiles- 



    ~~~~~~



     -nods- Now it is all done! Hmm...I've never seen a Japanese Wolf before...infact I know nothing of them. It's time for some research. See what I can find...then I shall find out and post a new topic!



     



     



     






     

    Areyarisu Shikoku Kenimage

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    Other Canine Members of The Airreyalis Crew: Zander (Alaskan Klee Kai) | Saphira (Belgian Groenendael) | Izanaiya, Sanosuke & Okiana (Yakutian Laika)
    Post edited by ShikokuSpirit at 2007-07-29 15:20:09