Silver Sesame Shikoku?!
  • DeonDeon
    Posts: 37
    So, I know Shikoku come in Black, White, Black Sesame and Red Sesame, but I was browsing through Shikoku Pedigree and found a dog listed as "銀胡麻" basically Silver Sesame. It is the only Shikoku listed under that colour and it was bred by the 山水荘 kennel. I took to Google Images and searched for 銀胡麻四国犬 but nothing came up at all.

    Is this Shikoku a one off Silver Sesame or is this a discrepancy on the database? Or perhaps it's just a Shikoku with a hugely diluted colour seems it appears to be one of the earlier Shikoku from the 1950s? It's piqued my interest a lot, especially seems I can't find anything on it via googling it.

    The NIPPO Number is listed as 15506 on Shikoku Pedigree.
  • "Silver" just means really low intensity gold/grey pheomelanin pigment. Pheomelanin is the tan/red pigment, while eumelanin is black/liver/blue pigment.

    I haven't heard it used for the other Japanese breeds before so I'm not surprised you've only come across the one. It's used commonly with the Akita for brindle dogs. However, whether a dog is red/black/silver brindle in Akita is purely a judgement call and description that owners use; the registration only says "brindle."
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2017-12-07 21:21:48
  • Interesting side note: The Hokkaido Ken Hozonkai (DOKEHNHO) recognizes a 6th color fot the Hokkaido that NIPPO does not: 狼灰. Roughly translated as wolf grey. I have only ever seen photos of one dog reported to be this color, and it was a sesame (agouti) dog with really pale pheomelanin. So you could call it a silver sesame I suppose.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1852
    "Silver sesame" would be a fault per NIPPO, I imagine, which may be why it's never overtly written or documented. It's not a common color. I would think it's something similar to the "white sesame" (shirogoma) found in another Shikoku thread somewhere on the forum.

    I found the dog. Looks like it was also born sometime in the 50s or soon after, so colors may have been different back then for the Shikoku.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2017-12-07 22:07:57
  • DeonDeon
    Posts: 37
    @PoetikDragon I have heard of Silver Brindle Akita, I'll be honest when thinking of a Silver Sesame Shikoku I'm thinking of the same kind of silver that Akita Inu have :)) Aside from Akita Inu, until I found this Silver Shikoku, I only knew of Ryukyu Ken coming in Silver. The head of the Ryukyu Ken Hozonkai has a pack of Silver Brindle Ryukyu at the moment.

    Interesting that Hokkaido have a "Silver" colour... I'll need to look it up. I knew Hokkaido came in other colours other than white (Brindles, reds, etc.) but didn't know they had a Grey colour. I guess that white hides a lot underneath, lol.
  • I've seen a silver brindle Hokkaido (but it would just be registered as brindle, same as Akita do). Let me see if I can find the pic...

    EDIT:
    image

    EDIT x2: I am pretty sure from the face markings this is a different dog
    image
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2017-12-07 22:36:17
  • DeonDeon
    Posts: 37
    @Crispy yes it is a fault. I have heard tales of White Sesame Shikoku. I think Shigeru mentioned them on his blog once.

    I'll have to look up the White Sesame Shikoku and see it. I wouldn't be surprised if they're the exact same colour honestly... In Ryukyu Ken both White and Silver is all classified under "Shiro" and so are some lighter Cream coloured Ryukyu so I don't doubt something similar, wherein, "Shiro" and/or "Gin" is just an umbrella term for light coloured dogs.

    Still, thank you for reminding me of the White Sesame Shikoku! I did forget their existence until you mentioned them, haha.

  • DeonDeon
    Posts: 37
    I've seen a silver brindle Hokkaido (but it would just be registered as brindle, same as Akita do). Let me see if I can find the pic...

    EDIT:
    image


    Omg. That's one of the most beautiful dogs I've ever seen <3
  • I didn't know that akita and hokkaido have only "brindle." Kai are registered as akatora, chutora or kurotora with the Kai Ken Aigokai. I think in AKC my dogs are registered "red brindle" and "black brindle."
  • As far as I know only the Kai differentiate the brindle on their registration... probably because they’re ALL brindle.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • Do the other breeds also register tail type? Our KKA papers declare sashi-o and maki-o
  • Akita only have one tail type, so no for them. No idea about other breeds.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1852
    I once thought only Shikoku separated sesame... until I got Nami's pedigree and it said she was registered as "red sesame", specifically.

    We register tail type in NIPPO.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • DeonDeon
    Posts: 37
    Ryukyu Ken Hozonkai specifically state the different brindles: Aka tora, kuro tora, shiro tora. They also separate the two Red colours as "Aka (Golden Eye)" and just "Aka". Although, despite Ryukyu Ken coming in more than 1 tail type they don't register tail type in any of the RKH pedigree's I've seen.

    It's interesting that the KKA register the different tail types.
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1591
    I've written about the Nihon Ken standard for coats here: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7267/nihon-ken-coats/p1

    The current standard for the Shikoku coat color recognizes sesame, red, black (black/tan), and white. White is penalized.

    There are four variations of goma (sesame) used when registering pups: goma (equal parts red/black sesame), kuro-goma (more black than red colored hairs), aka-goma (red base with black hairs mixed in), and shiro-goma (white base with black hairs mixed in). Shiro-goma while listed in the Nihon Ken standard, is seen in Kishu, but would be heavily penalized in the Shikoku as a dog that was lacking pigment.

    While I believe you could still register a pup as shiro-goma, today a light colored pup would probably be registered as a goma (sesame).

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