Kishu Ken color
  • CarleenCarleen
    Posts: 10
    I've been looking at all the pictures of colored Kishu Kens and am somewhat saddened by what I see. I know the colored dogs are just as wonderful personality-wise, but in my opinion, one of the greatest features that makes the Kishu Ken stand out from the crowd of other Japanese breeds is the white coat.

    Looking at many of the pictures it was hard to tell if I was looking at a Shikoku, or a large Shiba or small Akita.....but seeing a white coat (not cream) lets me know I have found a Kishu Ken. I feel it is a mistake not to work toward promoting the preferred color of the original founders of the breed.

    One of the greatest distinctions of the Kishu Ken breed is the pure white coat.

    Carleen........Kishu Ken-nel

  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2845
    Well you're certainly entitled to your opinion. And entitlement is what I see here.

    First, white is not the "preferred color." It is seen as unfortunate that white is the overwhelming majority for Kishu breed right now, and that the other colors have been all but lost completely.

    And secondly, if you can't tell a Kishu apart from one of the other Nihon Ken based on its structure and type... you REALLY need to work on your eye for breed type. Seriously.

    PS. What about Hokkaido? They're about the same size as a Kishu and are also commonly white. Can you tell a Kishu apart from a Hokka? XD
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
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    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2017-01-06 19:22:42
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    Are you trying to alienate people and be insulting, Carleen?

    Do you know how awful it is that the biggest memory I have from meeting you is remembering that you pointed directly at Nami while we were side by side at Westminster and said "they USED TO come in other colors" like me and my dog weren't there, or I was preserving some dinosaur or my dog was insignificant?

    There is no officially preferred color in the Kishu Ken. A Kishu can have poor type regardless of color. A Kishu can have good type regardless of color. A Kishu that is white can still be out of standard. And yes, the prevalence of white coats in the Kishu is generally seen as a cautionary tale, to the other breeds, especially when the quality of non-white coats suffer.

    I am really getting tired of this with you. I do my best to be amiable and try to reach out to you and be involved with the way you want to run things for the Kishu here. I even refer people to you - and reading this has made me very sad that I do. What are you breeding for beside white coat if you cannot tell the difference between Kishu and Akita past the coat? I cannot stand this kind of misinformation in the breed--especially one where the numbers and community is so small, we should be encouraging people to work together, not shaming one another and dividing ourselves because of personal preferences.

    If you don't like colored coats, don't breed for them. It is that simple.

    If you cannot see type past coat color, you need to look at more Kishu. Maybe we can visit Japan together, one day, and visit some kennels and learn what they think?
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2017-01-07 05:25:47
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    I do, truly, appreciate the work you have put into the Kishu in the US with the AKC, so this whole thread is just going to make me sad, I am sure.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    image

    A white Kishu with obvious faults and a Hokkaido with what looks like decent type to my untrained Hokkaido eye.

    You think this Kishu has poor type because she has a sesame dam, and it has nothing to do with her white, hunting-line sire? Is that what you are saying? Because no non-white Kishu can have good type?
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    If you like white dogs, then own and breed white dogs and leave it at that. Sheesh.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    Everyone has their own goals in their breeding programs. I do not think any one's goals are a mistake as long as their aim is to better the breed. How they might achieve that may vary from kennel to kennel, but colored kishu are still kishu and they are to standard.


    To say those whose efforts differ from yours are making a mistake is offensive.
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    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3005
    I've met a ton of shiba inu, two shikoku, and group of Japanese akitas all of various colors.

    I can still tell difference from a cream shiba and white hokkaido dog, differences between a kishu and hokkaido and so on.

    I've also seen big shiba inu and they don't look like kishu pictures I've seen.
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    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3974
    Lol, preferred color. Someone needs to study up on the history of their breed and popular sire syndrome. Kishu being white are part of the reason why cream and white in most of the other NK are considered a fault or DQ, the genetics behind it can degrade the quality of the other colors or eliminate them altogether.

    And aside for point ears and curly/sickle tail, each of the NK are distinct enough to tell apart to the educated eye even if they have the exact same coat color. None of the colored kishu I've serm look anything like the other NK, or even other spitz breeds. If anything, the white kishu are easier to confuse with other spitz breeds, can't tell you how many people confuse cream shibas with kishu.


    And I have to say, it's quite disappointing to see someone who is supposed to be a responsible and well known breeder make such a low blow on a public forum. Responsible breeders are supposed to be supportive and helpful to others wanting to get involved with the breed, and not make such harmful accusations. It really shows the type a breeder you are, and one that I wouldn't buy a dog from.
    image
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    And I have to say, it's quite disappointing to see someone who is supposed to be a responsible and well known breeder make such a low blow on a public forum.


    Well said. This is not the place for breeders to address each other. It's a small community. We can address each other by name in an email or phone call.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • BarkingPupBarkingPup
    Posts: 39
    Honestly, if a breeder tells me they can't tell they're chosen breed from other dogs that's a huuuge red flag for me. I may not be perfect at telling some of the rarer NK's from each other (Kai, Hokkaido and Shikoku) but I can definitely tell if a dog is a Shiba, Akita or Kishu... the Kishu part is mostly because I'm friends with a lot of Kishu people. If you *breed* I would certainly hope you can see the structural differences...
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 88
    Carleen: There is nothing wrong with breeding for a color preference, but I'm a little concerned that your website lists a "colored coat" as a major flaw.

    As far as I can tell, no major registry (NIPPO, UKC, FCI) penalizes a colored coat. A personal breeding preference should not be presented as the breed standard even if you did found the breed club in the US.

  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2845
    Outright misinformation to the public and puppy buyers is unethical.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
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  • aykayk
    Posts: 1977
    Japanese Akita in white:
    Konomi Go Hakusanyamashima
    image

    Japanese Hokkaido in white:
    MARUTO HOKKAI KOMATSU
    :
    image
    image

    Japanese Kishu in cream:
    image
    Post edited by ayk at 2017-01-06 23:59:40
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3423
    Personally, I love seeing all the yushoku Kishu photos from litters here and many of them are phenomenally put together dogs. For me, as someone who has been working with starting the Hokkaido breed club in the US, seeing all the colors makes me happy inside as that represents a broader genetic diversity.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
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  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3198
    That Kishu's got a nice thick coat
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion just as Carleen is. Carleen, when I first met you in the early 2000 when I brought Riki up to meet you I still remember how you voiced your opinion about his off white coat color. I took it as someone who may not know what a traditional Kishu looks like and didn't give it a second thought. But as I continued to talk with you, I started to realize that you completely look past what kishus started out as and only prefer white coated dogs. This post definitely shows your true feelings. Although I won't lose any sleep over it, this anti yushoku Kishu thought is a bit disturbing coming from a Kishu breeder.

    I have tried my best to enlighten you on Kishu facts but you have always told me standard this and standard that. At one point you even told me that the "Japanese" frowned upon the yushoku kishu. Honestly a lot of how you feel about the yushoku Kishu is laughable but again you are entitled to how you feel. I feel bad for the people who have been suckered into this thought process.

    I for one will do my part to promote Kishu facts. I will have love for both white Kishu and TRADITIONAL yushoku Kishu. If I hear anyone talk about this kind of missinformation, I will make sure to educate them with historical facts.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
    Post edited by shishiinu at 2017-01-07 03:28:15
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    I will put this out there as I have before on my prior posts so that people who may not know will understand. Prior to WW2, over 70% of kishus were Yushoku (colored). To this day the Yushoku Kishu is not a fault in japan. As a matter of fact there is a growing number of breeders who are working on the conservation of yushoku kishus. There are many hunters in the wakayama, Mie, and Gunma prefectures who hunt primarily with Yushoku Kishus.

    The white coated kishus became popular after bloodlines from three famous white kishus were predominantly used for producing boar hunting lines which later spread to show lines with the start of Nippo. Another reason the yushoku Kishu numbers began to fall at this time was the introduction of dog breeds not indigionous to Japan. But almost all of the Japanese breeds suffered with the new imports.

    With the beginning of Nippo, it was a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing as it helped with the preservation of the Japanese breeds but it also was a curse as dogs like the Akita matagi dog and Yushoku kishus were neglected with the Akita matagi dog pretty much pushed to extinction. Fortunately many of the Yushoku kishus living in remote areas of the Kii peninsula were still needed to hunt and continued to thrive in low numbers.

    I could go on for several days but this is a quick gist of some historical information.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Thanks for that last post @shishiinu!! :)
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
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  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 3663
    Thanks for the information and background, Gen! I'm rather disturbed by this too: it's one thing to express a color preference, another to spread misinformation. And it does disturb me that a breeder would claim not to be able to tell the difference between the NK breeds. I'm not a breeder and even I can do that--they don't look much alike.

    I'm not even really sure of the purpose of the original post, except to spread misinformation. And in breed preservation, I don't believe there is room for letting a color preference (one of the least important issues) cloud good breeding practices.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12218
    I ignored this thread because I'm sick of arguing with show breeders and control freaks in dogdom but, I figured I'd give a few thoughts on why we've focused on importing Yushoku first and on why these controlling show breeder types are fighting a losing battle.

    The simple answer is: diversity.

    As always, my focus is to help our small inbred population of Nihon Ken grow in diversity, which reduces inbreeding (COI / COR) and promotes a healthier population. I do this via introgression with the breed's founding population in Japan.

    The Kishu Ken is a very inbred breed in it's Country of Origin (COO), and is even more inbred in America because the dogs being produced in America up until Gen ( @shishiinu ) produced his first litter of Kishu were solely the work of @Carleen breeding off her original foundation dogs.

    Without adding new imports to the mix (as Gen did), there was only one direction the population could go and that direction would result in extremely high COIs and CORs.

    High COIs and CORs (inbreeding) results in an increased rate of tandem repeat, in some cases this results in the pairing of traits that are preferred to the breeder (like color or type), and in other cases it results in the paring of other traits that are detrimental to the health of the breed (due to an elevated expression of recessive genetic diseases, as well cognitive deficiencies, and lower fertility rates).

    When I looked at how I could help our small population of Kishu Ken in the most effective way, given the relatively high inbreeding occurring in Japan (their COO) in the breed, I came to the conclusion that the fastest way to get diversity via introgression was to import Yushoku Kishu Ken since they are the closest connection we have to the pre-WWII Kishu Ken (without crossing with a different Nihon Ken breed).

    So, I imported Nami, then Shizuka, and now we have Maro. My hope is that they will help diversify our population of Kishu Ken. We've also imported a few Shiro Kishu Ken too, and I hope the same for them.

    I agree that there's been a lot of Yushoku Kishu Ken produced from our efforts thus far. That wasn't really my intention, but it just so happened that Shizuka produces only Yushoku Kishu Ken. She's an amazing female Kishu, with excellent breed type, so I feel her offspring are very useful to our population even if they are not the 'preferred' color for some of us.

    I would prefer to produce more white Kishu Ken than colored Kishu Ken, however I always want to be producing a few Yushoku Kishu Ken too, as I do not want to lose diversity. Right now it may feel like there's a disportionate number of colored Kishu being produced, but that will quickly change once Shizuka is retired (she has two more litters to have before then) and, when that happens, we'll all be wishing we were producing more colored Kishu. So, I'd caution against knee-jerk reactions to the current puppies being produced simply because you prefer one color of the other.

    And if one can't tell the difference between a Yushoku Kishu Ken and a Shikoku Ken, one might need to familiarize themselves with the various Nihon Ken standards. Take some time to study pictures of the various breeds. Education should be an ongoing activity for a breeder.

    Now to speak frankly about what is really happening here...

    As mentioned before, up until relatively recently @Carleen has been the only Kishu breeder in America. She had a pretty comfortable situation going for a long time, where she had complete control over the American Kishu population. With the new Kishu breeders entering the equation and adding to the population, that control is shifting from her to the majority, and I'm sure that doesn't feel good.

    Thanks to the internet (globalization) new puppy buyers are more informed than ever before. Most buyers have done plenty of research on the breeds before they even contact a breeder - this is especially true for a rare breed like the Kishu Ken.

    The reality of the situation is that time is on the side of the new breeder, and the shift in power is inevitable. The days of influence for the "show breeder" and the politically driven breed clubs are limited. Even the AKC is on a negative path due to the increase of information (link). Gone are the days of buyers' "shopping" breeds and breeders by going to a dog show, and gone are the days of the show breeder having the most control over the breed and the buyer's decision.

    Those are the results of an educated consumer who no longer blindly value papers and titles over breeder integrity, transparency, and community.

    I know this because I've seen it play out in so many other breeds already - and I've already gone through this with the Kai Ken and Shikoku Ken.

    Old-hat "show breeders" can continue to create their siloed "breed clubs" in an effort to control the breed and slow the inevitable (at the expense of the breed), or they can join those of us who are truly working to help the breeds we love.

  • @BradA1878

    Really well written post Brad! I think you summed up a lot of the politics of breeding and the current state of the dog world really well.
  • CarleenCarleen
    Posts: 10
    Wow!.....I guess I really stirred up a hornet's nest with my post about Kishu Ken color!

    It is laughable that anyone would suggest I possibly cannot recognize the Japanese breeds by sight. I have been a professional dog trainer and handler (full time) in obedience, conformation, agility, tracking, personal protection and more, for over 50 years.......longer than most of you have been alive.

    I must assume that my comments went completely over your heads! I was momentarily speaking from the standpoint of the average dog fancier with regard to color being a "recognition factor".

    CJ's little female Fiona is a beautiful Kishu, but when she was in my Kishu Ken-nel booth at AKC "Meet the Breed" in New York, I heard more than one person comment upon seeing her, "Look, there's a Shiba!" because of her color.

    That is what I am talking about. A Kishu Ken should stand out and be recognized immediately as a Kishu Ken, first (not only), because of its color. Look at the Kai Ken......it's brindle, period......with only three acceptable shades. Color is a large part of any breed's "recognition factor".

    Histories of the Kishu Ken translated from the Japanese state that the hunters of old did favor the whites for ease of visibility and superior hunting prowess. The not-so-mythical
    white lines began for those reasons. White Kishu Kens are not just the occasional white puppy that pops out. And a white Kishu Ken with "apricot" highlights or points is not a "cream".

    My Kishu Kens are certainly not "inbred". Yes, I started with a single pair of white line Kishu Kens from the best Kishu kennel in Japan......they were a gift to me from Japanese friends. But in the last 20 years I have obtained additional dogs from Japan and elsewhere, although they did not come through anyone on this forum. All are whites, from Japanese breeders, from MANY generations of white bloodlines.

    I am quite aware that there are white Akitas, Hokkaidos, etc........ but there are no specifically white lines for those breeds......so those whites are just a wonderful gift to the breeders!


  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3198
    It is laughable that anyone would suggest I possibly cannot recognize the Japanese breeds by sight.


    Looking at many of the pictures it was hard to tell if I was looking at a Shikoku, or a large Shiba or small Akita


    but... it was you that said that ?
    photo Picture 3_zps4y5sotml.png Kai to the Core!
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    @Carleen -
    Looking at many of the pictures it was hard to tell if I was looking at a Shikoku, or a large Shiba or small Akita.....


    So yeah, you did say you couldn't tell the difference. But that was probably you being dramatic because you dislike what you see in other breeders or dogs.

    On breed type, how can you actually sit there and say this:
    image

    Has more breed type than this?
    image

    It's actually insulting. Fionna is a nice girl, but she's nice because she has a good temperament and a diverse background. She isn't nice because she meets breed standard. Toutarou, also pictured, came from a great breeder with nice dogs - a show judge who competes with his own Kishu and keeps sesame as well as white.

    Furthermore, I have had more people mistake Fionna for a Jindo or a Shiba than Nami. Nami actually looks like she belongs to a breed. Fionna is unrefined. None of that has anything to do with the color of their coat.

    Also, there ARE lines in Hokkaido, at VERY LEAST that are known for their white color-- the white Hokkaido I posted is one such dog from one such line! So again, you are spouting incorrect information. Whether that information is incorrect based on your ignorance or willful attempts to avoid uncomfortable information to stick to the story you've spun is up in the air. I guess only you know that.



    How you can sit here and say that Kishu Ken can only come in white or white is the officially preferred color is a mystery to me.

    The FCI standard permits red, white, and sesame. Clear as day. No color faults.
    This should be the standard the AKC-FSS dogs follow.
    http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/318g05-en.pdf

    The UKC standard permits red, white, and sesame. Clear as day. No color faults.
    http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/NorthernBreed/Kishu

    The NIPPO standard permits red, white, sesame, black and tan, and brindle. Also on their website. I confirmed with @TheWalrus that NIPPO still permits black & tan as well as brindle for the Kishu Ken - the colors are just so uncommon, you'd be hard pressed to find one. It even goes into detail on what the markings/colors should LOOK LIKE.
    http://www.nihonken-hozonkai.or.jp/standard/
    http://www.kishu-ken.org/uploads/3/8/9/2/38928623/nihon_ken_hozonkai_standard.pdf

    The JKC standard - the AKC-recognized club in Japan - also recognizes red, white, and sesame. No color faults.
    http://www.jkc.or.jp/modules/worlddogs/entry.php?entryID=95&categoryID=5


    I think I feel particularly spiky about this because it seems like SUCH a waste of time to argue about this when it's so black-and-white in the standards, except the one you edited for your website.

    Instead, we should be spending energy on investigating the genetic health of our breed. We should be spending energy putting out information that will help others. We should be spending energy getting the club active and showing people what our dogs are and what they do and what makes a Kishu a "Kishu" and why people should want to welcome them into their homes and care about them. Hint: it isn't a white coat.

    If you really care about the breed and want to show us you are right, why don't you make an account on the Kishu Pedigree database (http://www.kishupedigree.com/ for those wondering) and show us that we're wrong about the breed being more related than not.

    Maybe you could reach out to/follow up with Dr. Knox, too, to accept those 2 free genetic tests I got you, in good faith. Show us the superiority of your white dogs, please, and help the community information pool. She would LOVE to hear from you, since you didn't want me sending them to you.

    For the good of our breed. This has got to end.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2017-01-25 19:55:48
  • mdokicmdokic
    Posts: 1020
    Second what @WrylyBrindle said.. it's not laughable, it's direct quotes from what you said.
    The comments didn't go over anybody's heads. We understood exactly what you wrote. And your original post was a direct jab from left field.. which, in my opinion, is extremely unprofessional.

    Last thing, Fiona is a white Kishu, which is what you said makes a Kishu stand out as a distinguishing feature of the breed.. so what was the issue with her color and people mistaking her for a shiba? Now I'm just confused.. What is it you're hoping to achieve here?
    Michelle, with Kai girls Kona and Kimber
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    Post edited by mdokic at 2017-01-25 19:17:25
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    White Kishu Kens are not just the occasional white puppy that pops out.


    Actually.. Yes.. they are. Because of genetics. Kai Ken can be cream if both the parents are genetic carriers for cream. White kishu carry the genetics to have white pups. Just like yushoku kishu can carry the white gene. Where do you think white kishu came from? God? Far back in their pedigrees they have yushoku siblings, parents, grandparents, etc! White kishu are the result of a genetic gamble. The same as cream kai are. The reason why cream kai aren't popular is because they can't be registered, so they aren't bred for. Kishu standard allows all colors.


    People think my kai is a shiba all the time-- they don't know what a kai is! how can you blame them ? The same how they think the NK look fox-like. The general population of dog owners know diddly squat about dogs. My mom saw a dutch shepherd the other day and thought it was a kai ken. The average person doesn't know anything beyond labs / pit bulls / goldens / german shepherds. Heck, I remember when I went to a shiba inu meet up with Tavi and someone called her a 'marbled' shiba inu!
    image

    Tain, Nare the GSD/Husky, and Tavi the Kaigirl!
    Post edited by omgtain at 2017-01-25 19:07:18
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    @mdokic - I think she meant Nami was being mistaken for a Shiba, which probably has something to do with the fact that @Carleen was telling people that Kishu "used to come in other colors [other than white]" - which clearly confused people when they looked at Nami at the Kishu Ken booth.

    People probably wouldn't have been as confused if that hadn't been going around...
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2017-01-25 19:53:07
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12218
    Don't take it so personally, @Carleen. All Kishu Ken are inbred. The Japanese are rather heavy handed in their inbreeding (aka 'line-breeding"), especially in the Kishu breed (and especially in NIPPO breeds). A simple study of NIPPO pedigrees would reveal that to you.

    And when you favor one trait (like the color white) over other traits, you further the inbred state of the breed.

    Take a read: http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/whats-in-the-gene-pool.html
  • Saying that the general public can't tell your breed from another isn't a great argument.... I still have people comment on my 20lb "Akita puppy" (aka off standard Shiba Inu) and my "big Shiba" or "husky mix" (aka Shikoku).

    It's OK to have a preferred color. As long as those preferences don't have an effect on your breeding practices by causing you to potentially pass up a better dog because of color, then that's fine. It's not OK to passively snub other breeders who are working hard to preserve the same breed you love, especially when they're following the standards. These breeds are too rare for breeders to not be able to work together.
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3379
    This is about more than preferences, it's about priorities. Carleen's priority is producing white dogs, to the point where she's trying to influence not just her own breeding program, but the breed as a whole. The rest of the community prioritizes diversity, health, temperament, etc, more than they value coat colour. And yes, we are a community and these are our values. It's unfortunate that one breeder doesn't share those values and chooses not to be part of the community. It's even more unfortunate that that one breeder entertains notions of controlling the breed's future with no regard for the community or even the breed's history.
    Rakka 落下(Shikoku Ken), Sosuke 宗介 (Kai Ken), Hester, Stephanie, and Batgirl(cats)
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  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    Posts: 2845
    Breed preservation does not mean preserving one color, one single allele, to the exclusion of all else.

    You are right when you say there are no white lines of Japanese Akita. The reason? Because many breeders erroneously choose to breed only reds or only brindles, focusing on a single color instead of preserving the breed as a whole. This is not a Good Thing. This doesn't support your argument, but instead, point out why it is flawed. Japanese Akita no longer come in sesame because the popularity of reds drove them out of existence. No one worked to preserve them and now they're gone.

    There are white lines of Hokkaido Ken, in fact the Chitose line which are all white is probably the most populous of all Hokkaido show lines. Saying that there are no white Hokkaido lines is blatant misinformation and lies... or "alternative facts" I guess is the new way to say it.

    And even if white were the preferred color for Kishu (it's not) and the other colors not allowed (they are) it would be suicidal to throw out an otherwise excellent specimen exhibiting great breed type for a single allele. Once which can easily be bred away from in just one generation.

    To quote from Ruffly Speaking...

    Every dog who is removed from the population hurts that population. That is FACT. It’s population ecology 101. [...] Since every dog that is removed from the population hurts the population, we must only remove those whose presence would hurt it even more. (Emphasis mine.)

    http://rufflyspeaking.net/2014/10/27/how-we-must-change-as-breeders-and-why/

    The dominant wild-type allele at the Extension locus does not hurt the population. If anything, it is recessive red (aka white or cream -- which by the way are the same thing) that might pose a risk to the population.
    「怪獣荘秋田犬」Kaiju Kennels Japanese Akita and Hokkaido, Claire Matthews
    http://www.facebook.com/PoetikDragon
    http://www.facebook.com/KaijuKennels
    http://www.kaijukennels.com
    Post edited by PoetikDragon at 2017-01-26 02:31:10
  • I say phenotype be damned. Esp when its exclusivity hurts the breed. Yet, we see the exclusive conformation happening in breed after breed at the expense of their health.
    At some point Carleen and others will have to crossbreed to keep the breed alive.
    Britain Hill
    Fenikkusu and Kalitan
  • I think that all colors available in as many diverse lines as one can find in any breed, given that their structure and health tests are good, is important to sustain any breed.
    I realize that this is an unpopular view in a couple of breeds, but I can't help that.
    Britain Hill
    Fenikkusu and Kalitan
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3423
    @hotarujishin
    This is exactly what we have been trying to do with Hokkaido here in North America, as an example. We don't want any color exclusion. It's different with my first breed, Shibas, but they are in a very different place compared to the medium NK.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • TheWalrusTheWalrus
    Posts: 1556
    Just double checking my judging resolution, brindle is not allowed in Shiba/Shikoku/Kishu. I believe it's not listed that way on NIPPO's site, but brindle is not allowed as a color option when registering a Shikoku or Kishu.

    Black and tan is still allowed.
    Either way, b/t and brindle are for all purposes non existent in Kishu.
    Just clarifying this point. Sorry if I've posted otherwise (I get things wrong too).
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    @theWalrus - no, that's perfect. Thanks! I can update the info on my website regarding brindle.

    Do you know of any copy of the judging resolution that is in English? I have one, but it was translated for Shiba and focuses on them.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2017-01-26 14:05:55
  • I'm just getting to know Shibas as a breed. They seem to have more diversity than other NK. Correct me if I'm wrong. I sure have had some sick Akitas.
    Britain Hill
    Fenikkusu and Kalitan
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3423
    Shibas have more NUMBERS to work with certainly.
    info@hokkaidoken.org
    www.hokkaidoken.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 3430
    Visit any dog breed forum and you`ll find a thread about what their purebred was mistaken as. GSDs as huskys and malamutes, dobermans as great danes and greyhounds. That`s without the color issue. Yeah, the average person might not be able to tell apart the different nihon ken breeds. So? And? Your point? I have yet to see you make any.

    It`s a shiba!
    Actually, this is a kishu, another Japanese breed.

    Tada! end of confusion.
    -Rina
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 88
    Lol, it's so true that the average person can't even recognize common dog breeds let alone uncommon ones. I've had people in Japan ask if Ajax is a German Shepard.
  • CarleenCarleen
    Posts: 10

    Thanks everyone........great discussion! Carleen
  • AjaxAjax
    Posts: 88

    Thanks everyone........great discussion! Carleen


    I can't agree more. Can one of the admin confirm if this thread has the most likes on the forum? With 170+ likes its seems like it might!

    I'm also heartened to see that you are still part of the discussion. I'm sure that you weren't expecting the reaction that you received to your first post. I'm sure you would never say that looking at XYZ's dogs makes me sad. But because this community is so small, if you make a comment on a particular characteristic like you did, by default you are pretty much saying exactly that. That is why everyone jumped on you.

    Also since this community is so small every member is important. We should all be working together to improve and preserve the breeds. Part of that is maintaining accurate breed standards. There is nothing wrong about being incorrect about something and then fixing it, even TheWalrus can be wrong at times. Based on info in this thread, it looks like Crispy is updating the standard on her website to correct the error regarding brindle.

    Do you also plan on updating the standard on your website? If not, why not?

    What better reason than NIPPO, JKC, UKC, and FCI don't consider colored (sesame and red) dogs a fault? Your program can still bred for pure white and take pride in it!

  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1780
    I've updated the information on my site. :) I got to it as soon as I could!
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org

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