Social Anxiety & The Behaviorist
As I sit here watching pidgeons bringing sexy back in a very loud,
rude manner near my office window, it occured to me that no one has
posted anything about shibas and social anxiety (just realized there
was a 'search' option!)
We have realized that Kitsune's fear of
strangers stretches beyond just fear, its a real axiety issue. When we
first took him to the vet, he was shaking quite a bit, but it was only
day 3 of having him in our home and didn't need any shots, just a good
manhandling type check up, but he still was nippy and moaning a bit.
Wednesday when he needed to get his wound assessed, he was shaking,
darting for the door and almost clotheslining himself each time in his
collar, then he got testy and they asked US to put a muzzle on him for
the exam.
When people come up to us on the street to ask to pet him, because he
is a dog with incredible markings, we have to firmly say "No, he is not
people friendly". But again, it goes beyond that! He veers sharply
behind and opposite the side of the street that strangers are, at the
dog park he stays away from the people - will interact with dogs maybe
- but stays near the back gate, amusing himself, watching, sniffing.
We are trying to reinforce socialization, bringing him to pet parks, on
walks, near people in baseball fields and state parks, in petstores...
When we brought the foster male shiba in, we saw a disturbing
increase of that social anxiety, he'd pull backwards on walks to go
home, pull hard on the leash near our home (he's always been great on
the lead) and increased barking at the door, which is something he
rarely did.
How do we work with him to let him know that we WILL protect him?
How can we get him to trust us?
What steps can we take to alleviate some of his stressors?
Comments
The thing with social anxiety is that it is very easily created in young dogs by uncaring owners. It is not however, easily cured, well at least for Nemo, his brother, and many other dogs (shibas and otherwise) I have met over the years.
The thing to keep in mind is baby steps and praising all good behaviors and ignoring the bad. This type of thing isn't a behavior a dog should be punished for, they don't want to be afraid of everything, just ignore the bad behavior. Outside of the behaviorist, I would recommend signing up for obedience courses. Going out once a week, to the same place, and being surrounded by dogs and people is a good thing for the dog. For the first few weeks in obedience, Nemo couldn't concentrate. He was to busy looking around, darting back and forth, trying to keep an eye on everything. Eventually he start to accept the place and by the end of our 30 straight weeks of obedience he could really pay attention to me there and we could do our work. He also loved our instructor and was good with a few of the other people and dogs at the place. However that does not transfer to all new places.
Over the years he has learned to enjoy going to my parents house, my in-laws house, and a few other houses. It usually took weekly visits for a couple months, and he loves the people who lives in those houses too. Again though, that does not transfer to all new people. After three years of owning him, he takes to new people faster than he used to, but it's still a slow process. His brother Turi is much worse than he is. Both of them have the same type of behavior at the vet as Kitsune does. Turi usually gets so freaked out that he expresses his anal glands, it's bad.
Really it's just dedication, patience, and praising all the good things that will help Kitsune get through it. I don't expect Nemo to ever be the dog that loves everyone and is happy to greet a stranger, I just don't think it's in him. All I want is for him to be able to sit calmly and not freak out, we are getting there. A lot of people train their dogs with anxiety behavior too look at them every time they get stressed, so they focus on you instead of the stressor.
assistant was selling his theories and practices to me and said "oh,
he's worked with your breed before" and that "he can get them off leash
and learn to heel" - and I said I never expect that of my dogs, which
puzzled her. So I called her back and left a message to ask if I can
have the contact phone or emails for any Shibas or Akitas or spitz
types or they can call me for a testimonial but she hasn't called me
back since wednesday night. hmm.
And the behaviorist won't speak with me on the phone - he will speak
with clients only in an evaluation session and $100 are paid. Fooey.
yes this is the behaviorist that came highly recommended!! but it
was a radically different feeling when I spoke with his assistant about
his methods (which I like - no treat reinforcement, no raised voice,
all eye contact and attentiveness to body language) and credentials and
history. But apparently he has a major local following, he trains the
area's K9 police force - she(the assistant) just won't give me
specifics about my individual problem or his history with the breed
type. eh. we're gonna keep looking for behaviorists though.
I am right there with you. It took me about 2 1/2 months to find my behaviorist. Just don't give up. Although you aren't getting professional help, feel free to ask us any questions you have about Kitsune's behavior. Many of us have gone through this or are presently going through it. A lot of members have done work with behaviorists and it seems that most of the information is relatively the same. I am having the same issues with Ninja. He is fearful of strangers and new dogs. I noticed his behavior getting worse after he was neutered. He would growl and show his teeth more often and started to lunge and snap at people and dogs who got too close. This is a very complicated issue and very time consuming. You just have to keep it consistent and you will notice small improvements. I think the first step before you do anything is to make sure that Kitsune knows who's pack leader. Start doing excersises to show that your are the leader not him. Some things you can try:
1. Make him do a sit/stay before you give him anything, food, put on the leash, etc.
2. Anytime you walk through a door, go up/down stairs, make sure you are in front and you are leading.
3. Do not give in to passive dominance. Ignore all attention seeking behavior. If he comes up and sits and is waiting to be pet, ignore him and once he walks away, then you can call him over to you and make him sit and then pet him. DO THING ON YOUR TIME, NOT HIS.
If you are having any other issues, let us know...im sure someone on the forum has some information about any situations you might be in. I can't thank the other forum members enough for all the information and knowledge they gave me when I was still looking for a behaviorist. It can get very stressful and you might lose all hope, but there are good behaviorists out there, it just takes time to find them. But until then, you have us. Good luck in the search.
reinforcement using treats, i don't want him to look to the food, I'd
rather the dog look forward to the 'good dog' in my tone and touch
rather than food related rewards. I am not educated in the matter
enough to seperate them successfully but ideally, i'd like positive
reinforcement w/o treats.
super huge breakthrough tonite!! baby steps! baby steps!
my mom stopped by and Kitsune barked twice - that is all! John made him sit in the same room as our front door, then pet him once he was calm. Then my mom walked into the kitchen, Tsuki made her manic introduction dance and Kitsune went and sniffed her outstretched hand!! THEN! we went to sit in the living room, and instead of retreating upstairs, he layed down on the step landing (in the same room) and just looked relaxed, then she left and i was so happy. Oh my. Huge. Yeah its my mom but he's only met her maybe 4 times since we've had him, all brief intros. AHHH!! I love it.
Now if we could get him to walk on a lead passed someone calmly, i think i'd ruin it by jumping up and down.!!!
I don't know if this will help you, but your dog sounds like my Kishu... Kimi. She's my neurotic, psychotic dog--less now than before--who is almost 2. I have had her for almost 1 year.
Our first trip to the vet was using a harness, two leashes hooked to both ends, two people dragging her while someone opened the door, and a muzzle. Our vet doesn't normally let the owners back with the dogs, but we're a special case. She does better when I'm there. Now-a-days, I walk her in with little fuss, but she still gets the muzzle. ...First few times to the vet will seem scarey, but it's important that you act calm and talk calm since animals pick up anxiety. If you are all over your dog by petting him and telling him it's okay, then he'll feel justified in his fear. I tend to be next to Kimi, in her line of sight, with a hand on her, but not petting her. I talk to her, but I don't say it's okay. Usually something like, there's nothing to worry about. I am here to protect you. We just have to have you checked out. When the doc comes in, I'm in her line of sight talking to her. What helps is if you can walk him past the vet occassionally--not even going in. That helps a little to develop "Oh, it's not always a bad experience." Treats afterwards, with a high pitched "very good, boy."
I use clicker training now, which I think is a way to better communicate with dogs when getting them to learn stuff ("sit", click, treat/pet/praise/toy) since you're marking exactly what they're doing right. (Kimi just never got what she was being "good" about.)
So when people want to come up to her, I tell them to stop, get down to her level, no eye contact, turn sideways, no hats or sunglasses, etc. Oh, and no acting hyper. Hand extended with a flat palm or a back of the hand. Assuming you've been guiding people to do all that... Let the dog approach them on his terms; assuming that he's not jumping. This is where the clicker is handy because you can click when your dog sniffs the other person. But call him back to you. That way, he has "positive experiences." And it tells him that you're in control of the situation.
I don't think Kitsune will be greeting people of all sorts, but he may get past some of his issues. Kimi was the same way. Let's just say: LOTS OF TRAINING. I don't expect her to greet people, but I do expect her to not try to fight her way out of someone coming towards us. She is doing better, and all we do is go to the park and walk around the neighborhood. Oh, and obedience classes.
She could care less about people, but now she has a few dog-gods, and she loves them. Does it mean that she'll let them put a leash on her? No. But at least she doesn't try to hide from them and is okay being around them (or is it, them being around her).
Does she like being touched? No. But the dog-gods play a little game where she can get a treat if they can sneak a touch in. Can be a touch while she's getting the treat or a touch on her side (not the head).
And you know, being in a small crowd could be nervous too. Kimi's okay with everyone not paying attention to her, but if she has at least 2 people looking at her, she starts barking and backing up. We're working on that, but it's people training too.
I haven't figured out how to get her not to retreat yet; other than a baby gate and closing doors. She's an only dog, so she doesn't have role models.
Another thing that might help is hand feeding him his dinner and/or breakfast. It establishes dominance and leadership. Trust might come as part of that too. If you have a dog that doesn't care for food, just hang in there. It will be a battle of wills. People have told me that dogs don't starve themselves, and it's generally true. But if you're dog doesn't eat after four or six days (I forget which), then you should cave in and give him his food as you usually do.
I do have suggestions about walking on a leash. But perhaps another time. Hopefully all this info helps.
Please share your leash tactics when you have time! Kitsune walks very very well on the lead but will do a 'fox caught in the scope' thing when we pass people, cars (not so much anymore) or an obstruction on the sidewalk, like garbage cans or cut tree branches..
Alan the Behaviorist gave us a last minute open slot last night, so we brought the whole pack for the evaluation.
I don't know if I just can't bring myself to believe what I cannot see, but he was awfully odd. I guess pursuing something objective like Law makes it harder for me to except what he claims to be able to do, but I had a positive attitude for Kitsune's sake, but Kitsune was on the same page as me, he was not excepting any of his touch advances or soft spoken commands, nothing.
The point is the proposed prognosis: Alan believed that Kitsune was taken away from his mother and littermates too soon and never fully got the experience of the language and routine of being. When his first owners had him, they may have trained him to walk on a lead, they may have taken him to puppy obedience classes, but they never got him out of the 'den' on a regular basis for proper, continued socialization, they never practiced obedience without a food stimuli, nor did they establish a routine for him. Then he goes into rescue, where he was probably thrown into a crash test of socialization and a rehashing of walking on a lead, housebreaking and treat based obedience. Then we get him. At this point, we know to be patient with him and give him time to adjust, our behaviorist said we erred thinking because he was successful following our routine (which he's glad we established right away) that he had adjusted in two months time. He said that his social anxiety roots deep and over time he will get better. Already last night (not with Alan, on our own) my husband got him to walk past a garbage can calmly. Progress!
Alan believes that over time and consistency Kitsune will accept that which he cannot change using his established trust in our promise to protect him (as you said, asian.sapphire) and become comfortable with its familiarity.
The fight: He does not believe that Kitsune is to blame for the fight initiation but does believe that Kitsune will not back down in the face of back-against-the-wall adversity or someone who is threatening anyone in his pack. He assumes that Kobe was probably using a threatening language that Kitsune could sense but not fully understand which led to a fight. He believes that Tsuki is a good role model of a dog's language basics but that we need to get him out there, interacting with all kinds of dogs but in particular well trained dogs so he can learn their language.
???? - what is this language? he said body language.
He feels it was unfortunate that Kitsune bit me, but was probably already finding that Kobe was no longer inhibiting his bite and therefore had to go on the defensive and its my fault for getting bit because I grabbed Kitsune out of the fight. He does not believe Kitsune will bite again if its his choice, but if we do not work on his anxiety of social experiences due to lack of proper language skills than he may bite again if the situation is harmful enough and he is backed against the proverbial wall again. The good news is that Kitsune seems to feel very much a part of our pack and Alan does believe that giving him 6 months to a year of proper social experience and trust training that we would be able to successfully add to our pack.
I have great respect for people who chose to work with people to educate them to be better humans in their interaction with animals, but I do not think we will be utilizing Alan for further training sessions. His information was very helpful, but I feel we were already on the right track as of recently with Kitsune and can do it without having to pay him to watch. We may go to a group session that he is having at the end of May to see any progress in a social situation that we have made.
p.s. http://www.dailypuppy.com/puppies/Kenji-the-Shiba-Inu_2008-04-30
Dog training has very little to do with training the dog, it is almost 90% training the owner. In my Train the Trainer class I have so many people who come once or twice, think they "got it" and don't come back until they realize how much more there really is to it. And we are in the class as people "already trained".
You aren't paying him to "watch" you are paying him to help you understand signals your dogs are trying to communicate to you that you aren't understanding.
The greatest lesson one trainer taught me, is that "there is ALWAYS more to learn" even from people you think know less than you. That's why most of us signed up to this forum in the first place. I know there are more than a few first time dog owners on this forum who taught me some incredibly helpful things.
You obviously love your dogs tremendously don't miss out on an opportunity to truly gain a greater understanding of them.
Also readying body language takes practice. It is definitely a foreign language to people who don't watch dogs as a hobby. It took me months to get the basics. My mentor trainer has been doing for years and she is only touching the surface.
Learning body language is something that becomes internal and you will learn to know it when you see it. It just takes time and practice.
this is why i am not using his services again because all he wanted to discuss afterwards was his fees as we go on. I asked him "do you mean body language" and all he said was "its much more than that, you will see when we have more sessions". That to me is saying pay me, i'll tell you.
I'm doing more research and have a call out to two behaviorists within an hour from me. I don't want to discontinue, but what he told us, we knew, I wanted to learn more, but he wouldn't even answer simple questions without his being at my house in 2 weeks (his earliest convenience) as a paid session -
I even asked him - 2 weeks is a while from now, what should we be doing? and he says the training has not yet begun. He was just so brief with us that I don't feel comfortable using him, and it didn't look like Kitsune did either while I was reading his body language. The search for a behaviorist/people teacher continues...
Obviously if you don't feel comfortable with him that is key. But also keep in mind that if you weren't feeling comfortable or skeptical about him Kitsune will read that from you and you are then telling Kitsune how to respond to Alan.
Granted this was an evaluation session, last minute, I just think 2 weeks is precious time for us and Kitsune while we are realizing that we failed him greatly for the last 3 months or so and it was imperative to me to at least get a hint of what to keep doing, what to start doing, but nothing. he was very brief after his prognosis speech (which he told us could not be interrupted with questions as his thought process was happening) pressed for time I'm sure but I just feel that he could at least show some interest in our situation and our dog to at least give us an idea of what to do over the next two weeks.. The only answers were short and because I was pestering him.. like will clicker training and agility fair well for confidence and trust? I forced a few short answers.
I think if we don't have a positive experience all around this won't work. But if we cannot find someone we all can work with, we will probably use Alan for at least a group session.
I just want to do what is best for Kitsune and it seems as though the more I think I'm learning, the more I really don't know.
i'm just finding it hard to trust someone that can't even give me the time of day.. i just got called to do a paralyzed cat evaluation and fostering so I probably won't be on for a few.. but thanks to all for your words
And I called the behaviorist back, of course got the assistant, and asked for just a 5 minute phone convo with Alan himself to address my uneasiness with him this past week. To my utter surprise, HE called ME back within the hour, we chatted, he seemed much more human and down to earth this time around, we were open and hashed it all out for a good half hour and we are going ahead with the actual session a week from this Tuesday for Kitsune.
I am staying positive...