Agility
I tried looking through past threads and couldn't find much on Nihon ken in agility so I guess I'll start one. We just started agility class with Yucca and so far she seems to really enjoy it. I know her brother Raj is doing it as well. Anyone else do agility with their Nihon Ken? If so, how do they do? What obstacles do they prefer?
Comments
Kai ken probably do wonderful on agility with how agile and athletic they can be.
Saya does agility, but not in competition I got some set up got jump and weave poles need get a tunnel and few other items.
Saya loves it and does great her favorite is the tunnel and dog walk.
I know Carleen encourages people to enter in agility with her Kishu.l, so there are Kishu doing it. Somewhere.
Lindsay (handle? ...is it @lindsayt ) is a good resource too.
Shes still a puppy though, so we haven't done much yet. But we've been working on foundation since she was 10 weeks old.
This is agility lol:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=672828409442007
@crispy you should definitely try it. Im new to the sport as well. I've always wanted to get into it but I've never had a dog that wanted to. Yucca so far seems to have the perfect personality for it so I'm hopping she sticks with it
With my shiba, I noticed that the normal small window of attention span is even smaller with her. She loves it and gets jealous when she is not running and her 'brother' is. Training took a little longer because of the small window of attention spam before her shiba shineyness took over and wanted to do what she wanted. Competition wise... One day she can be the perfect dog.. Q in all runs and extremely focused. The next day.. its like who is this dog and why is it even on the course? She has completed 3 titles in CPE and runs performance level in USDAA.
In the summer, she will refuse to work and do jumps. So I will generally leave her home during these months. She will literally walk up to the jump, turn to me to make sure i'm looking at her, walk around the jump to the other side and look back at me like 'im ready to go!'.
My Kai. He loves agility and has more focus for it. He learned the equipment extremely fast, for example he learned how to do the teeter after going over a full height one once... he by passed any short or smaller teeters.. scared me like crazy. No fear in my boy. He has been doing agility for a year now. He is also extremely food motivated, so that helps alot.
Ty is also extremely fast so his weak point right now is collection. His favorite is the tunnel. For some reason, no matter how the tunnel is, straight/curved, he will always pick up speed in the tunnel and come flying out.... sometimes he will get the crazies and start his zoomie speed. Hilarious look on his face when he comes flying out. He hates weaves because it slows him down. He has a few Q'd runs in CPE and USDAA. My next USDAA trial with him he will start championship level (Starters). I feel like he will go farther with many Q's and titles in agility than my shiba so he is my main focus on hard core training.
Training vs trialing are two completely different atmospheres. When i started trialing i was also in the same building where we trained thinking that it is somewhere they are familiar with etc. It is still a different vibe. Ty will do fine and doesn't have many issues but may get stressed with his tail down. He just doesn't like other dogs charging to his face or coming up to his crate (yes it is covered). If I get his focus (ie: food!) then he zooms in on me and all is good. Asako is stressed out like crazy. She doesn't want to be in her crate. She wants to be out by me at all times. She will sit on my lap and not move... something I can rarely if ever get her to do at home. She will cry, paw at the crate and throw a hissy fit. If I can get her to focus on me before we run, she will generally do really good. Other times, it will be a crazy run and she will just do laps and take whatever obstacle she wants... (Gamblers is a good first game to run to get the crazies out!)
What I would say to people who are new to the sports is that Agility is a lot more complicated than you think. The foundation work with the dog is critical to both of your enjoyment of the sports down the road. What I mean by foundation is the dog's ability to focus on you when you asked and on the task/equipment ahead as you navigate the course. Most newbies will say they will do agility as long as their dogs enjoy it. What most people don't realize is that YOU have to make agility fun for the dog. No dogs come out of the womb just loving agility. You build it up by starting with foundation - having the dogs to enjoy working with you and focus working with you even under distractions, teaching them skills to properly and safely do all the equipments, training them to understand all the handling moves, so they know where to go next on a course etc. You sure don't need to teach your dog how to eat a piece of steak, but you need to put in a lot of work for the dog to learn to weave 12 poles, make all contacts on teeter, a-frame and dog walk and follow your cues to stay on course vs. doing zoomies by themselves.
Go to a local trial in your area and watch both the novice teams and the more advanced teams run. Look for teams that seem to enjoy themselves, regardless of qualifying or not. Ask people where they train and that should give you a good start to get proper instructions. There are a lot of "agility instructors" out there who really shouldn't be teaching. Go to someone who has knowledge will save you a lot of time down the road.
I have to drive 45-50 minutes one way to get to my agility instructor, but it is totally worth it. When I started, I used to go to a place 15 minutes away from my home, thinking we were saving commute time and doing it just for "fun", so no need to go out of our way to a good instructor. Looking back, it was a total waste of time. Without the foundation work, everything falls apart when you no longer has a leash on the dog, no treats/toy on you in the ring or the dogs get too stressed and/or distracted in a new environment when you actually compete.
I also want to point out that if you compete, it doesn't mean it is not "for fun". You actually have to work really hard to make it fun for your dog to hang in there with you in competition. Agility is only fun for your dog if you make it to be.
@poinea @sandrat888 thank you for the detail! I'm still learning, reading all the rules for all the different clubs & I agree. It's much more complicated then it looks! I agree it's up to the handler to make it fun but I believe the dog needs to have the will/drive to work or run for agility which is what I meant when I said I've never had a dog to do agility with. The past 10 years I've only been around Amstaffs which are laid back and don't feel there is any reason to run, climb or jump anything. They are my lounge dogs. Yucca has this eagerness to work. She wants me to give her a task & is motivated by my reaction when she completes that task which is why I believe she is enjoying agility so much.
My trainer thought he was perfect for agility: super fast, motivated with lots of drive but not obssessive like a BC. But as it turned out, he absolutely refused to play in groups. We tried several group classes, (and got pitying looks from the Aussie people who didn't believe how good he could be!), but most of the time, he just turned his head away and wouldn't do anything (but try to run to the A-frame). If we were alone or with only one dog on the field, he'd work beautifully, but if there were more, or strangers, he refused to do anything at all, so I've decided to respect his discomfort and not to try to make him into an agility dog when clearly he is not willing to work on what he finds stressful.
Anyway, all this to say I think Kai could be WONDERFUl agility dogs, but know your dog: if your dog finds new places/people stressful they may not enjoy aspects of it. And also, to me at least, it's all about the dog. I do dog activities to have fun with my dog, and if that ever went to a competition level that would be great, but if I see that my dog is really not enjoying it after multiple attempts (like Leo), then I don't try to make them do it. We can have fun with agility equipment without competition, and I go back to my private trainer just as an activity, rather than with an eye for competition.
Dogs come with whatever genetics they inherit from their sire/dam and there are a great varieties of possibilities for many different traits. How they manifest in a dog is a combination of nature (genetics) and nurture (training). By providing the appropriate motivator and putting in solid training, you can maximize the range of that dog's potential.
No dog is perfect for one particular sports. Even if a dog that has the talents/instincts for certain work or sports, it still need proper training to get more out of it.
Some dogs do have more drive to get what they want, but you can kill that drive by always helping them, so they never have to learn or figure things out. Other times, dogs have a lot of drive, but they only care for themselves, so you can not really take advantage of that drive (I suppose if given to the right trainer, you can channel that drive to something you want, as the "transfer of value" concept works everywhere.) We all have something we care for, that motivates us. And by recognizing those motivators and use them properly and timely in training, you can get better performance/work out of any dog.
At one seminar the speaker was talking about playing with the dog. She told us that she took the dog on to the field to only play every few months. Because when she did that she noticed that the dogs favorite way of playing / favorite toy was actually chanced. And because she used the playing as a reward when training she got new plays/toys that worked better because she had asked the dog about it.
So if the dog doesn't like something very much today, it may next week.
I started Agility training with my first Shibas Beebe and Ike in a very casual NADAC style class. They loved it, although I had some trouble with focus with my intact boy. He loves equipment, he loves to play, although I lacked the skills to help coach along his desire to play, and we were both insecure doing this new activity. I gave up a little too easily with him regarding expectations, and Sandra knows I make excuses about getting him back into Fun and Focus classes saying he will lose interest in the "boring" foundations
I still give up early with him and am soft on him, and need to work harder to be more interesting and increase my rewards to compete for his attention. I know he can do it if I put more effort into it. Seeing how well Maluko is doing in the hands of a great trainer is very inspiring, as she and Ike share a lot in common!
My time with doggy sports has been more focused on my girls. My first Agility dog I competed with is my Shiba girl Farrah. I have to space out her training and trials around heats and puppies. She has her Novice Agility titles in AKC and a leg in Open. Just as I was getting ready to send in entries for some summer trials, she went in heat and is bred again. She took time off for a few months between litters, but I got her back in Beginner and Intermediate level class for a refresher and she did even better than when we left off.
The exciting thing for me is Ike and Farrah's son, Ivan, is starting his Agility Foundations classes this week. It feels like I will be able to do with him what I didn't get the chance to do with Ike at the same age.
The problem with those instructors who only talk about "doing it for fun" is they don't teach you the basics to be successful long term. Instead, they focus on getting you to feel like you are running around with your dog on agility equipments. Everything is taught without taking baby-steps to get you where you should be eventually. It's like learning to play pianos - you need to learn to read notes, be familiar with the piano keys, playing Do-Re-Mi, playing easier songs, learning music notes and timing, connecting the notes and finally review and practice. These are baby steps to get you to being able to play piano. It doesn't mean you will be a famous piano performer traveling worldwide, following these steps, but it will get you on the right track to learn to enjoy and appreciate playing piano and listening to piano. And with talents and hard work, some may become a world-class piano player. Many of the "for fun" agility instructors don't take the time to teach you the basics and you end up playing on the equipment (piano in the analogy) way too early. Because you don't have the basics down (focus/attention, dog's understanding of learning to earn), body awareness exercises and flatwork etc), you learn many bad habits along the way and you do not enjoy the sports because you are frustrated with yourself and the dog and just chalk it up to "my dog is not interested in agility, so we are not doing it anymore.", I am not saying every dog will enjoy agility, but if you want to try the sports, find someone that is capable of giving you proper instructions to get you started. Otherwise, you are really wasting your money and time without scratching the surface of what the sport is all about.
If you are in the US, definitely look up local agility trials and go check them out. You will see many teams at different levels competing. Talk to people. Ask them where they train if you like the team work they show. Many of the knowledgeable agility instructors may not be easily searchable through Google or established dog training schools in your area. You can find out AKC Agility trials nationwide using AKC's event search.
http://www.apps.akc.org/apps/events/search/index.cfm?action=refresh_index&active_tab_row=3&active_tab_col=4&fixed_tab=14
There are many people that don't have access to quality instructors in their local region. Thanks to the internet, there are many online resources available to teach the basics. Here are some that I have heard good words about.
Agility University http://agility-u.com/
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/
Susan Garrett's Recaller course (only offered once or twice a year) http://www.susangarrett.com/the-five-minute-formula-to-a-brilliant-recall/
I took Susan Garrett's recaller class about 2 years ago and it was very helpful in our journey to learn the basics/fun games from her. It is not necessarily geared toward agility, but it teaches you how to be the most interesting thing to your dogs and play/work with your pup, so you have more values to your dog when you call them off distractions. It teaches you all the basics to establish a strong working relationship with your dog, so you are much more than a cookie dispenser. I would definitely recommend Recaller online courses for anyone that wants to learn more about dog training and motivation.
I took some Nosework classes with Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and really like them too. Denzi Fenzi is a great instructor that is very good at using personal play (without treats/toys eventually) to motivate a dog to offer outstanding work. I attended her seminar once and is impressed with her knowledge. So that's another option for people who want to learn and can be disciplined enough to learn through online classes.
You are 100% right though @sandrat88, without fun, there is no competition, your dog won't be motivated. Agility all around is FUN!
But once we got beyond that into the group class and I was in a class with a bunch of aussies, a border collie, and GSD, it was way less fun for us. Our trainer never stopped helping us and believing in us (she was great!), but the rest of the group wasn't fun, because other people were a bit dismissive of Leo and has abilities because they were used to dogs they got specifically for competition. We also didn't go further because my favorite trainer cut back her training schedule dramatically (she got a new full time job!) and I would have had to take classes taught by people who had aussies and expected all dogs to react like herding dogs. That would not be fun for me--I get tired of having to explain my dog and his reactions to people. And we also discovered Leo was exceptionally hard to motivate when he felt stressed by the other dogs/people. He just did not want to do it in a group.
So sometimes the difference between competitive vs. fun is just that: a handler may not find the competitive aspect appealing either. I did not--I didn't like my dog being compared to the herding breeds (esp. when I knew he could do it just as well if he wanted to), nor did I enjoy the impatience with of these other people (cuz you know, I got it: they didn't want a Kai. Well, I don't like Aussies, either, so there you go) that I found as we worked our way into the classes for people who were serious about competition. Leo made it abundantly clear that he did not enjoy having to work in bigger groups, and I didn't like the atmosphere that much either, and that was that.
"Fun' is a relative term. What is fun for one person may not be fun for another. While I certainly agree it should be fun to compete, for some competing is not fun. My motives are simply to find a quality instructor and involve myself, my dog and my family in agility to give Nero a productive energy outlet and build a closer bond between us all.
@Mdokic and @Shibamistress you guys nailed it spot on!
When I first got Maluko (my first dog), I went to a training school 15 minutes away from me, based on recommendations of others and the fact that the owner of the school competes in obedience and agility. We only did basic pet obedience classes there and never took their agility or other more advanced classes. Luckily, I got exposure to other instructors that are farther away from me, but have way more knowledge than the one that I started with. I read and learn on my own. Looking back, I was glad that I did not continue classes with this instructor or her facility (she is the owner). I saw her dog ran a couple times in both Agility and Obedience and he looks miserable. Obedience is her main thing, so her dog does better there, but still compared with others, her dog looks worried and confused in the ring. She hardly competes in Agility and the only time I saw her in the ring, the dog is slow as hell. It is a Belgium Sheepdog and most of them have pretty good drive and willingness to work. This tells you a lot about how motivated she is to get her dogs going.
I was a Seattle Kennel Club show a year ago, competing with Maluko and Koji in Agility. It was held in a big convention center in downtown, so a lot of general public were there watching. A woman approached me and asked me about doing Agility with a Northern Breed. She has an American Eskimo Dog. When I learned that she was taking classes at the training school I started way back, I was not sure if I should tell her that is not a good place to train. This woman is a stranger and should I even bother telling her the truth of that place? I eventually did and referred her to a few instructors in the area. I never thought twice about it again. Fast forward to this Feb at a local agility trial. The same woman approached me outside of the ring (I did not recognize her then) and she thanked me for giving her the best advice ever. She told me about our conversation and she said she went to an instructor that is much farther away from her and noticed a world of differences in the knowledge she learned. She was at the Feb trial competing with her American Eskimo Dog at the Novice level and she thanked me for being honest with her.
What I want to say to newbies is that most of us started out as not seriously about competing. We started out because we wanted a deeper bond with our dogs and to mentally and physically challenge our dogs (well, you will learn that the human gets challenged mentally and physically in the process too as you move along.)
As you learn with your dogs, there are sure to be hurdles and obstacles to your training. Some choose to give up, while others press on and figure it out how to move forward. To even have fun at any level, you definitely need a good instructor to guide you through the process. I strongly encourage you to go to a real trial in your area on a weekend and see for yourself. Talk to people that seem to have a blast with their dogs regardless of qualifying or not. Talk to people that have fun and are nice to their dogs. It is really a fun experience if you think of it as an outing event to learn more about what you can do with your dog.
I would still suggest you to go to a real trial and see the team work there. There is no substitute for that. By going and talking to competitors there that show great team work you aspire to have with your dogs, you will not be limited to whoever the agility club referred you to.
I would also like to point out that even with an instructor that has knowledge to share and do well with their own dogs, some just don't really care that much about helping you. You do not necessarily need to find an instructor who runs a non-traditional breed, but you want one that cares enough to help you with your non-traditional breed, so you can learn and improve. My instructor had no prior experience teaching a Shiba, but she has done wonders for us because she cares about us as long as I showed some motivation to learn and try harder. She was not amused with me when I first started and did not practice outside of class.